This looks a little disjoint, because its cut and edited from a conversation in ymessenger.
...
D: Blah! IITians are just a hard-working, parent-pressurized lot, who lose the ability to choose a line of their own choice and go with the flow of the masses. Thats what IITians are all about - like you!
Me: (LOL) Who gave you that impression? Neither me, nor that girl, nor my best friend Baal, nor n other IITians I know, are hard-working! And none of us have been pressurized by parents for anything in our lives!
D: Thats what you all say! My god.. maybe u really havent seen the other side of the river.. which is why u think a little bit of less growth of grass means infertile?
Me: ...and we are all so *weird* that its downright silly to say we "go with the masses"
D: But u all end up in the same place, cooking the same thing, joining mass companies.... having no social life...
Me: No... I am saying that you have the stereotypical impression of an IITian... which is DEAD WRONG! Joining mass companies? Hardly! There are IITians in politics, consulting, engineering... some with their own businesses... most IITs have an entrepreneurship cell. Having no social life... well that applies to people like me... but its a bad generalization.
D: Yeah, yeah... but in my view, if they go through all that stress and still survive, its like a stigma, that they hold close to them.. its a very.. "I'm an IIT person" kinda ego.
Me: But I was not stressed in IIT... just the two years before that! But big ego is right... thats one thing most IITians have in common. So, finally, you got something right :)
D: If only half of u realized.. that u were better in something in due course.. and not force urself to sit in IIT.. i think there would be some creative genius over-flowing from India.
Me: We didnt force ourselves to sit in IIT... its a goal we worked for 3-4 years to achieve.
D: Exactly. Its madness! You really think at the age of 16, you have the ability to decide what u want to do?
Me: Correct again... it is madness.. strike two for you :)
D: But... no.. its not about what I do 10 yrs down the line.. its about gettin into IIT... tell me one person, who had a vision as distinct as himself, and worked towards it, and thought IIT is the way to go.. not many in my view.
Me: See, when we started studying to get into IIT, we didnt really know anything about the IITs; we were aiming at an ideal; aiming at something abstract, intangible... rather than the real-world IIT. We didnt know what we were getting ourselves into, and you know what? It doesnt matter! because, whatever happens, we still have free will to do what we like with our lives. But yes, it is madness to be working so hard at something you know nothing about...
D: But not for one sec, did anyone sit and say.. I wanna become a.. somethin something.. and go for it.. heck, i found my interest 4 months before i finished 12th. If i had thought its too late.. then i would have moulded into a software person.. like billion others...its never too late when it comes to life and decisions. But it is too late when it comes to IIT madness.. by then its the social stigma.. u gotta live up to it.
Me: No da... free will... its not fiction. IIT teaches us that by giving us a taste of freedom.
D: IIT trains u to be a winner.. and not be a loser.. thats what u all have for ur advantage. After u come out of that pressurized state..
Me: IIT doesnt train you to do anything... its the getting into IIT part where all that happens.
D: You breathe ur first breath of fresh air.. and u navigate urself to any position u want... because IIT in ur portfolio.. will give u a better treatment than one who has specialized in something.
Me: ...so, you see, it is all self-imposed and not the fault of IITs at all
D: See.. much easier for u to say when u got into IIT finally. Imagine working towards it for 3-4 yrs and not getting in.. because of some 0.5%.
Me: hehe... MOST of my friends to whom that happened... they say it was one of the best things to happen to them!
D: Yup. First breath of fresh air... leave the chains behind.. and fly!
Me: ...because, with all that sharpening of the mind that goes with the training, they find themselves able to perform much better in their environ, whereas if they got into an IIT, they would be some mediocre person!! And chains? What chains? Chains are self-imposed....
D: See, honestly.. i am not patronizing IIT.. because after all its an institution.. been there for a long long time.. has provided some marvelous geniuses.
Me: A LOT of people do something completely different after graduating from IIT..
Me: Ah, but you see, I am not arguing on behalf of IITs at all... I am trying to hammer into you...
D: But.. it doesnt hold any value in my eyes.. because it also snatched away some free choice of thinking. I wish there was an intensive training given to students from 16 to 18.. and then decide then. After going thru that intensive training.. ur already influenced to an extent.
Me: ...that you perceive chains and fetters everywhere, and in the process, you fetter yourself more truly and any real chain.
D: I can only hold my views to ppl who get to IIT and who study in IIT.. not for what ppl do 10 yrs down the line later.. ok? Thats not something i can judge or discuss.. because its got nothin to do with IIT in the end of the day..
Me: What influence are you talking about? And what free choice did it snatch away?
D: Your coaching classes. You cant put hardwork into something unless you believe in it.
Me: Oh really? Well, you are chatting with a contradiction to that..
D: Yeah.. so accept it.. that ur forced into the hardwork part.. u pursue the IIT and work for it, not pursuing ur free choice of a career are u? Thats what im tryin to state..
Me: No da... I did not force myself... it was a challenge... the allure of that is impossible to describe to someone who feels that he/she was forced into doing the same
D: I know.. its a ball of yarn.. waiting to be possessed.. and lets see which cat gets it... its pure competition...
Me: No da... I didnt for a moment think about the competition... its the problem itself... the challenge is in cracking the toughest exam in the country... the challenge is not beating other people in the process!
D: I wish u could tell me, just exactly what does that toughest exam tell u.. apart from the fact that u beat it.. while many didnt.. isnt that called competition? So u mean to say, one who passes this toughest exam is crowned genius, and everyone else isnt? Even the one who lost it by 0.5%?
Me: Wrong again... its the JOURNEY that counts, not the end. In this particular case.. see, my other friends who did not get in, they still went through the same coaching as I, right?
D: Ya
Me: Well, they weren't forced into it... and they enjoyed it. Several of them quit after one year, because they did not like it and they weren't good at it as a result. Now, those who finished the coaching and still didnt get in, they were disappointed at first, but as the years went by, they found that what they gained in the process was worth all that hard work, even if they did not get into IIT. What you learn from the journey enriches you, and prepares you for things at a later point in life, but only if you do it of your own free will. If you did it out of pressure, you will not learn anything and will come to despise it, irrespective of the outcome.
D: hmm
Me: *phew* my fingers are aching :p
D: :) Ah, but ur an IITian. Youre probably used to it :P
Me: No way... being an IITian makes me used to headaches :) fingers dont have much work at all
D: My view stays with me.. i still feel many sitting in IT could hav been doing so many other things they r better at. But i wont argue over this.. because its an individualistic viewpoint. Probably my experiences and observations have shaped me into perceiving it in this format.. thats all.
Me: No, you see, you are correct that these people could be doing other things which they might also like and be good at. But the fact is that, many of them actually do... only, after finishing their degree in IIT, rather than before. Because you learn the meaning of freedom of choice, and its importance, during life in IIT
D: We have no way of deciding that for sure. Because, end of the day its a process of learning.. IIT is one just like others. Yes, perhaps superior in many ways.. yet we cannot decide for sure.. that those who go in IIT only after that they will shine in some field of their choice.
Me: See... after so many years, you still feel constrained...
D: ...because u havent seen the same pursue another chosen field of their choice right from the start.
Me: Ok... tell me, about these people who chose their field right from the start. How many of our chennai friends are artists and musicians and historians and sportsmen? ZERO. ZERO!
D: The point is... hello hello wait... the point is.. we dont have any other choice.
Me: See, the constraints of society and parental pressure are always there. Where is the IITs fault here?
D: India hasnt got that. bas. You are studying in US now..u know how it works
Me: Yeah... I know
D: Thats wat i hav been telling u
Me: Blame it on Indian society da...
D: IIT is supremely ruling ur choice
Me: IIT coaching has nothing to do with it
D: I didnt say its because of the institution did I? I praised the institution or not?
Me: Not the IIT itself... I'm saying dont blame it one the coaching system either. Blame the root cause.. and what I am saying is that one learns to exercise one's freedom after 4 years in an IIT
D: No.. IIT is supremely ruling ur choice .. and this holds true in the whole of the Education system of India..
Me: Oh please... how many people can get into the IITs anyway? And how many people try? It is a remote fraction of the population.
D: See.. thats ur IIT ego talking :P im happy i dont have it.. bas.
Me: No da... this idea of the IITs ruling our choice and all.. it is a personal opinion affecting people like you
D: You mean to say u dont learn to excercise one's freedom after 4 yrs in ANY UNIV???
Me: Aha, now we come to the point... you see, in IIT, the people are WEIRD. They do the strangest things and there is nobody to tell them not to do them. Its kind of a tradition... right from 1970s, IITs the breeding grounds of change
D: Hehe.
Me: Its true... Mardi Gras in the old days had a notorious reputation. Anyway, the other colleges in chennai are very well-ordered, well-maintained etc, with nicely laid down rules, and students expected to come clean-shaven with shiny black shoes and full shirts, and not talk to girls even (it true, I swear). Our parents like that. They want their kids to be brought up in a disciplined manner. Which is DEAD wrong as an ideal! In IIT, you find the antithesis of all that, and by the time you come out, you end up being an iconoclast in many respects. And many people construe that as ego, actually, because if they don't have the guts to do such things, they have to belittle it right?
D: Maybe.
Me: ok, end of lecture for the day :) I am going to cook lunch. Before I leave, tell me... what is the moral of the story?
D: Yes? Moral is.. dont touch IIT topic :P
Me: >:P try again :)
D: :p err that ur hungry and u want to cook?
Me: #-o once more
D: :D lets not forget.. the world called archimedes a psycho too. They called einstein a weirdo too. Soooo... youre the next einstein? :D
Me: Keep trying :)
D: Poda. Now im gettin headache. I will stay away from IIT :P
Me: No no you must tell me the moral of the story, or all that typing is for waste!
D: Your viewpoint.. ur ideas. I listened. I will mull on them for a while. Like a cow..
Me: Ufff the moral is not related to IIT at all
D: Ok.. its relatedto me?
Me: Yes
D: That I have a twisted american mentality screwed up biased idea about life?
Me: Nope
D: Oh I know that :D
Me: :)
D: Hehe.
Me: Ok, am i supposed to spell it out for you?
D: That ppl like u, because of ur IIT background, are able to think outside the box, while ppl like me are still stuck inside the box?
Me: Close... but not exact...
D: Anyways congrats :P
Me: You see, the whole point is... we all seek to ascribe reasons for our actions based on the circumstances. Its about time we stopped that and started taking responsibility for our choices, because, when it boils down to it, there is always a choice.
D: Every individual lives for himself, in other words?
Me: Yes...
D: Good. Point taken.
Me: It may take some doing to get used to the idea that our decisions in the past, which we regret, were not "caused" by society or parents or whatever; but we meekly acquiesced.
D: Yeah thats because by that time, u have already walked 10 steps forward of ur own choice
Me: Once we embrace and accept that guilt... we can be ready to make our decisions for the future out of free will
D: Guilt-free zone... I'm creating one:)
Me: Oh, its always a weighing of different guilts... all actions have tough consequences, one way or the other.
D: Yup. Two sides to a coin.
Me: But with this point of view, you will approach the whole problem with a different viewpoint. If you can start without the bias that you are *expected* to do certain things, you will be better armed to take the correct decision.
D: Yup
Me: ok, I'm done :) chew on it :D
D: :P
Me: goodbye!
Care to join the fray, anyone?
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21 comments:
No man (or woman) can actually see another and say, this person completely dominates me in all aspects. While you need to justify your existence as an IITian, it seems that the other person had to justify her's. While accepting guilt (if there is one to recognise which is hard if i am trying not to) is good for improving oneself, sometimes blame-game would also help you especially if you are not an escapist.
Speaking of creative juices flowing in history, dances etc, its plain simple society. Its not like India is not suited and the society is oppressive or repressive. A hungry man doesn't care for art. Simple. So, India as a society doesn't care for such stuff. If one views at a granular level, the so called IIT craze is typically present in the middle class which thinks of it as a way to salvation (not too obviously). The noveau-rich of Delhi dont find so, and I know of quite a few people who took break after 12th to explore themselves, puts an india tour or joined rock bands etc, but they have dough of their parents. Once, an average indian doesn't have to worry for existence, I am sure we will also have a Ph.D in Gay and Lesbian Studies.
And dawg, try not to post transcripts. You could have summarized this, couldn't you.
And yeah, try this "Battle of Wesnoth" asap.
Well... if D has any objection to this, I will delete the post. I guess I should have asked for her permission in the first place. Simply, I was too lazy to convert this into a post, so I did a cut-paste.
Baal,
Note that I did not say "avoid" guilt: I said "accept" and "embrace". That automatically allows you to place blame where it is due, as long as you don't exclude yourself from it.
A hungry man doesn't care for art.... well, thats perfectly accurate, but if he achieved financial security and still chose to live by his original ideals, and worse, imposed these ideas upon his children, then that's wrong, na?
~ ooo, morals in chat sessions!...well, why would it have to be acceptance of 'guilt'?...Choices dont have to be followed by a guilt for making them, I think it can be mere acceptance of the fact that you made a choice...without a guilty connotation...
~ I went to those IIT classes, only coz everyone else was, and all along knowing it was not my thing, with subjects I didnt enjoy...it was mostly a waste of my time, but that was a mere 2 yrs in my life, and college was a mere 4...yeah, impressions are made, and character moulding and all that jazz...but at the end of the day, its 2, or 4, or 6 yrs only...and that puts things into perspective and lets you be regret (and guilt) free...
Well, when I refer to "decisions" here I'm not talking about "Hmmm... eggs or cereal for breakfast?"... I'm talking about things like "Stay back in India and take that nice job offer, or go to Pennsylvania State University and do that PhD?"
Whatever I choose, there is a measure of guilt associated with it. The point is that if I take the decision 100% objectively, I can accept that guilt and not have regrets.
Yes, I realized you werent talking about breakfast decisions :) (although your mum would prolly want you to :))...This guilt concept is still interesting to me, I cannot identify with it, even for major decisions...maybe your connotation of the word is different fm mine...But in whatever way you get at it, its prolly a good thing you don't have any regrets :)
There, like Intern said, maybe you are talking about pros-cons when you say 'guilt'..Now that, I get, totally :)
Lol...:P
Ok all you lil boys and girls who understood the moral make a line.... Sp please come stand here in the front... anyone else..Oyye Div .. where are you hiding?
So who's got the gun ? I have the bullets..
Here here take my gun..psst its a bit rusty :D
SP,
Honestly, that was so overbearing especially the moral thingy. C'mon man get those creative juices going !(I know I know they freeze in the winter). Well I shall refrain from commenting on the core subject of the post.
However on the subject of making choices here's what I have to say: I think a lot of us are too spoilt with choices to choose. Subsequently, there is so much speculation about the past (hindsight if you please) that it makes us feel miserable and whiny and filled with guilt and remorse perhaps.
We haven't learnt to live with the choices we have made: truly speaking when we make choices we eliminate things that we don't want only because we don't know what we really want!
--kk
I actually read the entire post!!! on IITians!!!!!!I had come here rom Ramani's blog to read a V-day post btw! :)
but lost it half way through the comments!! in any case I was right! D is a female!!!!!! YAY!!!! :)
it may sound like a loser's argument, really! to people who did win that rat race pre-12th that is!
I mean I know I didn't get into an IIT, not that I tried my level best- definitely not as much as some others I know who did get in- far from it!
so, i have two choices, admire all who have the IIT tag and mourn(Ok just feel slightly bad) my own loss or go all out lashing at the IIT ians.
i actually stand midway! but I have to say in spite of a couple of my very good friends being IITians, I like to stay away!
coz a superduper ego they sure have!!! :)
I had this guy telling me that he finds everyone around very childish and not really worth speaking to! I was shocked! of course I gave him hell for a year over it! even the non-IITians are sometimes blessed by bursts of super-sarcasm you see! :)
maybe I could reopen my blog by writing on this, I got a lot to say!
on the core topic about everyone having the choices, I couldn't agree more though! its just about your courage and strength to take the hardships that come with that choice and stand by it!
huh! I am not used to writing long comments!
Kirthi,
Actually, in retrospect it does seem overbearing :) but keep in mind that I was trying to give some advice to a younger person.
Madhura,
Actually, whether or not you like those IITians, it would be fun being around them, if only to hear some unconventional views! And be audience to some IIT-bashing in the process, that seems to be a common pastime of people these days :)
Glad that you agree with me (on the whole at least). Well if you do write a post on this I'll be sure to drop by. And please do write long comments, it makes life less boring!
Let me give a bit of hindsight behind the arguments by D
It is common assumption that the people who might Bash IIT are the ones who chose others things over it.. or just plain decided that they were not "IIT material"...or they couldnt get in finally.
D doesnt come in any of this category. She never considered IIT in the first place.. nor did she consciously rule it out. Her ideas, and arguments are based on the people she has met who "are" from IIT or who are "Ex-IITians" . So, only as a third person, she observed the entire process of 'gettin into IIT' and it seems I drew the same conclusions as many who are or were involved in this process ; which I think.. gives some credibility, even if it does have a level of bias to it.
Referring to KK's statement, is that negative bias against having too many choices? I don't suppose everyone has the freedom of choice entirely. We have got constructive limits which automatically eliminate many. The choices we do have.. are the basic ones. For example a "career plan". I personally think this was missing in vast "majority"(not all) of the people who did apply to IIT or pursued the 'whole process of getting in' as u may like to call it...
Another point I noted in the comments was about "decision-making". I have a certain theory that I wish to share it with you all.
Presumably taking the IIT case here, the decision to pursue Engineering was taken first. Then, the next decision was involved with choosing the best or high-esteemed institution that could give one a highly valuable base to build on further! Is this always going to work? KK is right. We all are eliminating choices because we really dont know what we want. Upon my experience, I was 'encouraged' to find out wat is that I want! (even if not exactly atleast a vague idea). Yes, this is no joke.. because there was a 2 hours class devoted to this during the whole of 12th. I will repeat here what I learnt there. It is of no necessity for a person to sit in 11th/12th and think about what Science or Arts they are interested in. Ninety percent of us have heard of Bio-technology and several such 'big big names'. Believe me, we don't know half of the things that actually goes in there. Instead, the one and only essential part of ur decision is your long-term plan. In 10 years or 20 years what do I see myself as? What post do i want to hold? What kind of set up or sorrounding I want to be in. THEN, we decide our mid length-term plan of which Degree to pursue in order to reach that place! Because.. there are million ways to approach the same position. This is where ur choices widen dramatically! Finally, we decide upon our short-term plan, which is attain the percentage in 12th that will ensure my long-term plan's success!
Now.. What most people who pursue IIT do is... focus on the short-term plan! Get the admission in IIT is the agenda at hand! If that's not possible, then we sit with our percentage and go.. hmm.. wat else I can choose or I can get for the grade I have got! Now, your choices are far too less.. atleast the one you are interested in! Finally in the end.. you are not sure if you are still a Mechanical enggineer.. or you want to switch to journalism.. or perhaps even pursue some MBA. You ask any IITian if he perceived himself to be doing this 10 yrs down the lane? Maximum would say no! This is because the whole Top-to-bottom strategy of decision-making has been inverted!!!
Divya,
Regarding the bias against IITians, I merely draw the line at people who understand us - usually those who were in an IIT in the first place - and people who do not understand us, namely the rest of the world. The further division of those who attended coaching classes and those who didn't is irrelevant and irrational. Wizard's first rule may say that people may illogically become embittered by their failures, but at the same it says that even complete outsiders may illogically come to hate IITians, and vice versa! In other words, we are in full agreement here.
As for the decision making theory, all I'm saying is that this insularity and lack of career planning is not a consequence of IIT coaching classes, but a consequence of the way Indian society is. I suggest, further, that getting into IIT may itself be the cure, as it encourages you to break such restrictive shackles. I also venture to offer that it is exactly this kind of behaviour that gives IITians a bad name and make people think we have big egos. I also say the IITians indeed have big egos, but the reason for that is another story altogether.
I think you must give some background about D, that will put the Us Versus Them argument in perspective.
I have had this argument with the insanely large number of IITians I have known for as long as I can remember!
D aka Divster aka Divya is a lil girl with a short pony tail, who was supposed to be playing housie housie with her barbie dolls but invariably got mixed up with the wrong kind of people.Meaning Us :).
SP how did you do it?
How did you manage to get all these girls to agree on a topic?
How did you get into this tangle dude? Vc shakes his head ...
Smugbug,
And I've had the same argument with an insanely large number of non-IITians! What say we argue it out between us now? :)
Vc,
Eh? What did I do now?
Hmm..Saw your blogrolling titles..
Quite corny I say...
Anyway..hope to enter this discussion shortly..
Heehee... totally agree... am taking them down anyway because I want to see "last updated" at a glance.
oh.. while we are at this topic of IIT... do check into my blog's question that I hav posed on similar lines.
All IT related ppl are welcome to share their views...
signin off
-divster
Ok I have fionally got around to reading this post:
1. Firstly, it's NOT about IIT. It's about the ppl who get into IIT. They are the uber motivated obsessed types. Hence, they are like that. It's not because they were any different earlier. IIT is just a collection of such people. (Ok broad generalization, but you get the idea).
2. I am in this 'top ranked' program. Everyone here is some hero from wherever they are from. I find the ego effect to be more in non-iitians. They have a 'Yayy I am soo great' thing going, and trying to prove even if they didn't egt into IIT they are ok. They are as good or 'better' than IITians. I have been beaten to pulp or survived being beaten to pulp enough times to realize that there are probably lots of people smarter than you.
3. Ha it's girl. Da. Poda. Girl only. Like Madhura correctly noticed.
4. I think even this ego thing is a generalization. Most people are so 'fascinated' that they are just looking to see if you are arrogant. Jerks are jerks, but without the tag preannounced you might never know.
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