Friday, September 02, 2005

Do you believe in Evolution?

Last weekend was a series of coincidences. I was talking to a friend about people who are agnostic or atheist but still go to temples, and we ended up talking about God, Life, the Universe, Evolution, and everything. The same evening, we went to a "discussion" at the Vedic Society meeting on "God Exists? - from a scientific perspective". Truth be told, I only went because I would get an opportunity to meet new people, eat Indian food, and bash a few heads, and not necessarily in that order. But it ended up as a heavily moderated and steered discussion aimed at converting, not just atheists into theists, but into Hindus.

Of course I was inwardly indignant that the objective of those people was rather to proselytize than to hold an intellectual and objective conference, but it was that much harder because of the narrow-mindedness I encountered in some people there. I don't want to go into the details of the evening because it's not worth your time, so I'll cut to the chase.

The slide in question depicted some neolithic hand tools, and how we accept that they were, indeed, tools made by Man rather than natural rock formations happening by chance. And then it showed the biological complexity of a DNA strand, and asked how we can accept that it happened by "chance" - as evolution, by Darwinian description, is the survival of the fittest derived by random mutation and natural selection over thousands of generations. In other words, the Hand of God behind the creation of the blueprints of life is inescapably conspicuous.

I furrowed my brow and pointed out that the complex DNA structure didn't happen overnight but over millions, perhaps billions of years of Evolution. The DNA structure of various organisms were not created by God but rather, can be explained by Evolution; the question, then, is how do you explain Evolution itself?

With that I surprised myself - here I was, questioning the fact that natural selection is the hand behind evolution, after all those biology classes and years of scientific training. I was so stunned at myself that I was speechless for a moment.

And then I was rendered doubly speechless by the moderator, who promptly questioned the occurence of evolution itself, and asked how I knew that Life originated by chance from a primal soup of semi-organic matter and developed by itself over millions of years into something as complicated as Man. Did I know how many holes in the theory have been conveniently swept under the rug by scientists? How do I know for sure that God did not create humans, but they were rather evolved from apes?

Don't get me wrong, I was not silent from the force of his argument but rather by its stupidity. How could there possibly be a guy who did not believe in Evolution? What kind of a moron thinks that God put in Man on the planet as-is, rather than evolve from apes? The paleontological evidence for Evolution is overwhelming, and the evolution of many species can be traced quite far back!

While I bemoaned the fact that religion can blind us to obvious conclusions of science, I was soon hit by yet another coincidence. I was reading Contact by Carl Sagan, and in the book, Ellie has several conversations with priests who believe that the transmission from outer space was from God (or the Devil!) rather than an alien civilization. And yet again, they end up discussing the origin of Life and the Universe and all that. And - get this - the priests believe 100% in the Bible and that God created Adam and Eve from scratch. And apparently so do 75% of USA's population.

Then it struck me. It's true. Most of the Christians believe that God created Man directly. Which means they do not believe in Evolution. The same goes for several other religions, though I'm quite sure that Hinduism makes no such claims - even though a significant percentage of Hindus are of the same belief.

That single fact alone reinforces my belief that people, in general, are idiots. And that of all solutions for making the world a better place, education is the best. Only then, if every one around you goes and jumps off a cliff, you will stop to ask, "Why should I also do it?"

I will postpone judgement on our good pal Darwin because I am unqualified to draw conclusions on the question of whether chance mutation and natural selection together constitute the driving force behind evolution, or whether there is some deeper issue to unravel. I'm confident that hundreds of years of research by qualified scientists is more likely to be correct than some sudden gnaw of doubt in my mind brought out by the religious maniacs, but I can't help but feel that in some measure, they've achieved thier objective even on one as well-informed and scientific-tempered as I.

Cheers,
Prashanth.

28 comments:

Artful Badger said...

I am not sure if you are aware of this 'science' called Intelligent Design that has actually made it to some schools in the US. Intelligent Design = Designed by an External Force.
http://www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/
It's mostly rubbish. Mocking it a student created a religion called:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.
You would be surprised that a lot of
people actually believe in intelligent design. It's a lot easier than figuring out all the complexity.

Artful Badger said...

DNA is just C, N, O and it's likely that in a huge ball of chemicals DNA was created in small quantities. Once the set of basic chemicals was created and replication was made feasible. The rest is history.
I am sure it might be possible to have 'life' with a different set of compounds in a different environmental setup.

Anonymous said...

You know Ramani,
Pennsylvania is among the states to teach "Intelligent Design" in schools; of course this idea is very much endorsed by our very dear (???) Mr. President!!!

Prashanth,
I would had predicted that this topic was in-coming; after you have discussed Genetics and God ... and once again I wanna say... Welcome to America!!!" You're settling down.....

You'll see a debate: "Evolution versus Creationism"; which is basically two set of ideas:
1. Intelligent Design : which supports the existance of God or Superintellignet Aliens;
it is like a rehash of "Creationist Argument"...
2. Theory of Natural Selection:
Darwins Theory and sebsequent scientific developments.... Supporters of Intelligent Design (ID) argument; mainly try to find "weakness" in the Theory of Natural Selection. Even if they are successful in this; they cannot make a logical case supporting ID...

Somehow that fact that "Natural Selection" happens randomly or only "by chance"; is inconsistent with their belief in a omnipotent creator....

Though almost the entire Scientific Community is in favour of Evolution Theory; many Americans do believe in "Intelligent Design" ....

Will get back on this later...
I'm totally distraught by this Katrina..... and I love Jazz, and New Orleans is its birth-place!

*Intern.

Anonymous said...

Back again...
Okay, before jumping into "Evolution" and "Intelligent Design" controversy ; lemme say...

- When I first heard that many Americans "still" believe that GOD himself created humans and different species of animals (Genesis theory of Bible) and they discredit Darwin's Evolution Theory....
even my initial reaction was ..
Wh-a-a-a-a-a-t????
You gotto be kidding...

Then I figured out its not only this; there are many issues where Indians can be termed much more "liberal" than Americans:

- issue of "abortion", which is legalized and in fact promoted in India, is yet a controversial issue here. There's forever a debate between, Pro-Choice and Pro-Life ... where; Pro-Choice = supporters of abortion and Pro-Life = against abortion.

- Interestingly, these Pro-Life supporters (against abortion) are "mostly"; not only in favour of Capital punishment but also against Gun-Control.

- "Stem-Cell" research; an area in which there's no controversy in India; is another area of major "ethical" debates in the US.

In fact, these days; the mainstream American values tend more towards "conservative" ideas.

Now coming back to the topic of Evolution; Darwin's Theory is in fact said to be the most controversial theory "ever" promulgated....

Though this idea of "Intelligent Design" (ID) was always accepted in the society here; but in past few years; it has gained momentum. There's a Christian Think Tank named "Discovery Institute" which is devoted to popularising this idea. A name famously associated with it is of William Dembski.
Interestingly our President supports supports this idea. In most schools here, they teach Evolution Theory as alternate to ID...

Ha!! Whatta laugh!!!

Prashanth said...

Rahul Pratap was telling me about the whole Intelligent Design thing. He was characteristically kicked at what he calls typical American stupidity. I can't wait to hear what Baal thinks about it. Most likely he will give a half smile and keep his opinion to himself, even if it is writ large on his face.

(Oops... for the Non-IITians... Rahul and Baal are two of my close friends who were in my Hostel)

Anonymous said...

for a minute I thought you've confused me with some of yr friends...post 4 is also by me..

But Prashanth, I sooo much wish I could talk to you at length ... I mean you just "refresh" my coming to America days ... and though we are sooo very different, I'm surprized that almost same issues interests us!!!

- Crazy *Intern

Prashanth said...

Will you drop the "Crazy" bit already? :)

Tipsy Topsy said...

was the food good?

Anonymous said...

Ok first things first. You CANNOT and I repeat a zillion times CANNOT technically convert anyone to Hinduism. You are simply born as a Hindu. It is another issue if you "adopt" the Hindu way of life.

Secondly, hinduism believes in the theory of evolution. Look at the Dashaavatar. You will find a marked resemblence to the Darwinian theory.

Next I don't know how u see it..but tell me if I give u all the chemicals that constitute the protoplasm can you create life? What puts life into that protoplasm that makes it what it is and not another abiotic substance? Till we find an answer to that it's easier to satisfy oneself with the reasoning that it is God.
--kk

Anonymous said...

Your view is as parochial as theirs. Why is it that they become idiots just because they believe that God created man? The only reason you believe what you see (ie something that is tangible to your logical thought process) is because you have been conditioned to do so. Just because you do not understand or don’t have the means to or perhaps, choose not to understand what our Vedas and Puranas contained, does not mean that its all hogwash.
--Amritanandamayee

Anonymous said...

Intelligent Design

God created man.
See, in the beginning, the only two people on Earth were Adam and Eve. After God banished them from Eden, they had a bunch of children, who had children of their own... and they eventually populated the whole world.

Jesus said, if you can't believe Genesis, you couldn't believe Me.

-- Jim Donahue

Anonymous said...

whoa whoa whoa...

Dear Sir Amritanandamayee;
you said " Your view is as parochial as theirs..."

Are you labelling the view of the entire Scientific Community as "parochial"??? Cause his views is based on the scientific reasoning...

Lemme just raise a few questions on "God created man" theory based on "Intelligent Design":

- Genesis theory makes the earth's age as 6,000 - 10,000 years old.
Scientists believe that Earth is more than 4 billion years old.

- Bible claims God created man in 6 days. So Adam and Eve existed alongside dinosaurs.
Scientific evidence says, dinosuars were extinct when humans evolved. Evolutionists advocate that dinosaurs evolved 200m years ago and became extinct nearly 65-70 million years ago. Human like homonids evolved roughly 3 million years ago.

So respected Sir Amritanandamayee;
Do you think the "ONLY" reason
he believes what you sees (ie something that is tangible to your logical thought process) is because he have been conditioned to do so ???

*Intern

Prashanth said...

Guys, you really must read more on the Intelligent Design project, it is hilarious... and you DEFINITELY must read about the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory, I was totally ROTFL. Check out Bobby Henderson's letter to the Kansas School Board: http://www.venganza.org/index.htm
And there was one guy who justified the FSM theory through String theory... toooo funny!

Prashanth said...

So...

Ramani,
Thanks for the links!

Intern,
Calm down!

Tipsy,
It was delicious :)

Kirthi,
I'm a staunch supporter of Hinduism. Thats why I was incensed at the behaviour of the people there. They interpret the Gita and the Vedas according to their convenience. You should be siding with me here. Hinduism never said that God created man (to my knowledge), and in fact, like you said, suggests that life evolves.

Prashanth said...

Amritanandamayee,
I don't remember saying anywhere that the Vedas and Puranas are hogwash. In fact I think they are among the best things that ever occurred to mankind. Point out to me where in the Vedas or the Gita it is written that God snapped his fingers and Man appeared on Earth, and then I will tell you that that part of it is indeed hogwash.

Just because I am agnostic it doesn't mean that I am closed minded and opposed to all religions. I respect the doctrines of all religions in general, and I think a lot of good has come from them. I merely don't believe their claims on the behalf of God, such as Genesis. And I have several hundred years of scientific research to back me up on that.

I think you are the person being parochial by stereotyping me based on a few sentences I have written. And, please, don't equate the Vedas with Hinduism, or Hinduism with its view on Gods.

Anonymous said...

Comeon Prashanth,
I never lost my calm one bit ...
not on this issue...

Knowing you as little as I do;
I still was sure this topic would comeo-up ...
Its kind of wh-a-a-a-a-a-tttt??!!!
*Intern

Anonymous said...

ohh Prashanth,
if you are referring to my use of words respected/dear.. (for Amritanandmayee)
... was for fun; dont get to use 'em much; though I believe its a "disguised" nick; when nicks themselves are a disguise!

Dont be toooo serious 'bout what I write ....

I stand bewildered amidst houcspocus
A commoner seeking respite from the focus
I ask with shaking lips n parched throat
Did I go wrong somewhere in my wrote???

ahhh...nevermind
Crazy *I

Anonymous said...

SP,
I did not say whether I was on your side or not. My idea was just to clarify notions about conversion and evolution as Hinduism sees it. Apparently there was some ambiguity in your post regarding those.

Most religious texts are open to multifarious interpretations and those in turn produce a bunch of fanatics who take it to the extreme to serve their selfish ends. You see it in all religions not just Hinduism. In fact religions like Islam get maligned because of such zealots.

Oh btw Hinduism does have a counterpart (not entirely though) of Adam ie Manu. And again Manu Smriti is one whole controversial text. Will ask my mom if u are interested in more info abt it.

Funny, you chose to ignore the rhetoric in the last part of my comment.
--kk

Prashanth said...

Hey Kk... I though rhetoric by definition doesn't need a reply ;)

Anonymous said...

a tribute to Hinduism:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/introduction_to_hinduism.htm

Vc said...

and he said "let there be light". Rahul switched on the tubelight. It flickered for a few seconds and Voila!!... there was light.

Artful Badger said...

The links were fun. I killed a good amount of time on those 2 links a few days back.
These people are crazy. Even in India there will be serious objections to nonsense like this. It so surprises me that here in the US they get away with it. How can you even say 'Intelligent' design. It's so stupid in todays world. Probably, it's some way they can get out of all the complexity.

Anonymous said...

Yeah Ramani, i checked out the links too; Thanks!!!

The concept "Intelligent Design" is mainly to highlight the difference from the concept of "Random Selection" in Darwin's Theory of Evolution! The belief that the OMNIPOTENT God had "intelligent design" behind creation of Adam n Eve .... and humans are not a product of some "random selection" by nature! But then God maybe behind "genetic mutation" and random selection may only SEEM to be random, like a pattern in chaos ...

*I

Anonymous said...

Okay, since the discussion here is more or less over...
lemme write down my first reaction to this question:
"Do you believe in evolution?"
It was...

Evolution Versus Intelligent Design
Either one, in a way is a MIRACLE .....
and outta nowhere this song took home in my head:

I believe in miracles : Ramones

I used to be on an endless run.
Believe in miracles ’cause I’m one.
A have been blessed with the power to survive.
After all these years I’m still alive...........
I believe in miracles......
I believe in a better world for me and you.
Oh, I believe in miracles.
I believe in a better world for me and you....

nahh;
actually the VERY first song that came to me was one of Marvin Gaye..

I believe in miracles,
Where you from?
you .......................

Prashanth said...

I know! I know what comes next :D

Deepti Ravi said...

Just a suggestion.. read 'Chariot of the Gods' byErich Von Daniken.. it might just change your perspective towards evolution and everything!!!

Prashanth said...

Will look for it! Thanks...

Anonymous said...

I don't think it is very fair that reduce a complex scientific argument which has many finer points to a single catchphrase, "..most people are idiots..".

And from now on, be prepared to hear a lot of my rather *strong* opinions..

- Nag